Vets And Canine Diabetes concern. in Canine Diabetes Forum

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Vets And Canine Diabetes concern.

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Johanna13	Vets And Canine Diabetes concern.		Lead	[-]
Administrator Posts: 7346 05/21/10 11:57 AM Administrator & Owner	Tags : insulin, care, diet, vetsulin, canine diabetes, syringes, vets, curves, novenin, euthanasia, cost It has really become clear to me now why so many diabetic pet owners are choosing euthanasia rather then treat there dog's diabetes. I guess I was lucky... my son hooked me up to a canine diabetes forum almost immediately... So I became informed rather fast that this was treatable and not expensive as long as I took on the major part of this disease. I have been hearing more and more lately that people are choosing euthanasia because of the cost !! This has always bothered me because unless there is a major issue, its not expensive to care for a diabetic dog.... Well today I spoke to Marianne, and she just saw her second vet to care for her newly DX Jazzy..... The second vet does not approve of her doing curves at home... They must be done at there vets office at $180 a curve ! The first vet only used Vetsulin !!! Now as we all know Marianne is a savvy diabetic owner.... she already had Pebbles that was diabetic and Cushings... She is also a moderator on this board... And after all her knowledge she was still intimated by these vets.... She even took the bottle of Vetsulin pushed on her by vet #1 home with her.!!!! After a phone call from that visit I convinced her to go back to that vet and return that vetsulin and demand human insulin. When she went back they refused to treat her dog with human insulin... So off to vet #2... Her visit today was also unrewarding.... only this vet can do the curves at $180 a curve... Even after Marianne explained her knowledge of this disease it was still a no go for this vet ... So here is what I am seeing ..... A new person who just had there dog DX with diabetes is being told by a lot of vets...... You need to get your insulin/ syringes from us only....: $$$$$$$$ You need curves done by us only : $$$$$$$ You need to get your food from us only: $$$$$$$$ You can not get a new supply of food or insulin until we have a office visit: $$$$$$$ Do the math people !!! a lot of people can not afford all this and there so frightened and they don't know what to do. So they choose to let there dogs go !!!! Most people do not go to the internet to get help... those that do are the chosen few that took things into there own hands.. But the average pet owner just accepts what there vet says and goes with it... I think this is awful !!!! I wish there was a way to somehow get the message out there that you can treat Canine Diabetes... It does not have to be so expensive..... And I'm angry that most vets chose to make the $$$$$$ rather then welcome a partnership with the pet owner to help there dog have "quality of life" with this disease !!!! OK I'm done venting !!!! I'm angry as you can see.. and I feel helpless to help these pet owners that are walking into there vets office and choosing euthanasia because of the UN-NEEDED expense !! Does anyone have any ideas of a way to get the message out there so some will chose to treat this disease rather then euthanize....???? Last Edited By: Johanna13 05/21/10 07:27 PM. Edited 11 times.
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rhodesian46		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1994 05/21/10 12:18 PM	I think that questions when finding a new vet should be mandatory to ask: Do you advocate home testing? Is the curve I am doing at home sufficient or does my dog have to have a 12 hour curve at your office? How often and how much? And why? Do you advocate home cooking or keeping a dog on his food that they were on before diagnosis?Or do you prefer a prescription food and why? What kind of insulin are you using on your clients dogs? How many large dogs and or small dogs are you presently treating? What testing needs to be done regularly and how much ( i.e blood testing) Do you think fructosamine tests are needed even though I am home testing and have a good idea on where my dog's bg is throughout the day? I am angry that this vet didn't want to work with me. Most people don't have the $ for all this testing. Most newbies are scared out of their mind . Some vets play on your emotions making you think that this is the only way to treat your dog. And that is their way. This aggravates that some of these vets are so frigging close minded and the mighty dollar means so much to them. How many dogs die each year because the owners are scared crap-less and CAN'T AFFORD THE EXPENSE!! SORRY FOR THE RED.YOU KNOW ME I USE RED WHEN I'M AM PEEVED OR HAVE TO MAKE A POINT. What testing needs to be done regularly and how much ( i.e blood testing) Do you think fructosamine tests are needed even though I am home testing and have a good idea on where my dog's bg is throughout the day? Will try a few more vets in the Austin area. If not Jazzie will go to A& M. I mean how often is she going need to be seen? Not as often as Pebbles did Last Edited By: Johanna13 05/21/10 12:37 PM. Edited 9 times.
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mommytoNash		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10009 05/21/10 12:44 PM Administrator	This makes me realize how blessed I am. I have a group of Vets who when I said I wanted to switch insulins, were VERY supportive and said, just let us know if you need help. They know I test at home, and support that. Here is what I have had to do. I've had to say to them, 'Money IS an issue'. I can't continue coming to you if you can't work with me on the areas that I KNOW I can do at home'. And I've told them I HAVE to shop around for supplies and meds. So, they have the choice of keeping my business, or having me go elsewhere. Of course, with some people, their other choice might be to have the dog PTS, and how does that benefit anyone INCLUDING the Vet? Just tell them Marianne, I can't afford office curves. I can't, and if you won't work with me, I will have to look around for a Vet who WILL work with me. So, you either want my business, or you don't, it's that simple. Please tell me they didn't say anything about putting her to sleep? If that subject came up, I'd be gone in a NY minute while screaming as I left this Vet IS NOT interested in the health of your pet, only your WALLET!! Marianne, give this new Vet a chance to answer this by putting them in the position to MAKE the decision. If THEM doing the curve is more important then having you as a client, then so be it, move on. Cindy and Nash Nash was born 9/2/1998, and is my sweet 1/2 breed Cocker Spaniel/English Springer Spaniel. He was dx'd with diabetes in November 2007 and is currently on 9 units of Novelin N twice a day. Nash went blind approximately 6 mnths after dx, has glaucoma and gets eye drops 5x day
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buddingartist		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 334 05/21/10 12:47 PM	Let me be the 3rd one to vent. My one and only regret is that I did not find this site quickly enough. By the time Buddy was diagnosed, I was completely dependent (hook, line and sinkers) on the vet. All I knew about diabetes was that I was scared of it because of my family history but surely, it must be different for an animal. The handout that I get on the second visit informs me that it takes both time and financial commitment (boy you're not kidding) First the fructosomine (big name - rush home to read about it on the net) test number scared the crap out of me (656) and convinced me that without his help, my little man would die. Then being told that he had many diabetic animals that he was treating reassured me that he knew how to help a dog owner manage the diabetes. Then I was told to bring my glucometer and that they would show me how to test, that gave me reassurance. By the time I was ready to try it, everyone in the clinic told me that they didn't know how to use the lancet because they do a vein draw. Hell, even I knew how to bring the darn strip to the blood bead... it's to get the darn blood that I needed help with. Then the pancreatitis and ketoacedosis crisis and being told that as a last resort, we will try human insulin and if it doesn't work, <we are behind the eight ball<. What? human insulin on my dog.... you are going to kill him. How would I ever do without my vet. Never in my wildest dream did I think that we could use human meds on an animal. Afterall, I was told never to use a human shampoo on a dog because their PH balance is much different and I would do more damage. Now let's talk about the da... food, the yeast, the paw infections. Of course, the vet must know better. and then I found this board. And now I think I may have found a vet who seems to better understand diabetes and its implications but he can't take Buddy as his patient because he was referred to me for an ultrasound by my first vet. We have spent more than we could afford to, hubby was ready to start selling his possessions (first his new Ford Escape) and then his ATV. We are a little more fortunate that we have a comfortable (not rich) retirement but it is still worrysome and I can certainly understand a person debating whether she/he can put food on the table or spend money for his/her dog care. Tough decision.
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sissysmommy.petswithdiabetes		#4	[url]	[-]
Moderator Posts: 1494 05/21/10 01:49 PM	It really is a shame that vets do this. They see $$$ because they need $$$. That does not make it right. It costs about $300 to put a dog to sleep. An owner will spend way more than that over time. Are they just so arrogant that they think they are always right? I don't know - my vet was great. But I feel for those of you who have these problems because you sure don't need them! Sissy, a 15 1/2 year old lhasa apso left for the Rainbow Bridge on February 28, 2009. She was diagnosed on September 21, 2007. You can run and your eyes are clear, my girl. On March 8, 2009, we adopted Fritz, a Bichon Frise puppy. He is a rescue dog with a beautiful spirit.
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rhodesian46		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1994 05/21/10 04:31 PM	Cindi I got out of this conversation with this front desk lady that she had already asked the vet about me doing curves. I mean I explained in detail what I went through with Pebbles, TX A& M and their requirements,home testing etc. She had a 15 minute conversation to relay back to this vet, It was clear that she wanted Jasmine in for curves. I am not going to beg them for my business Evidently they don't want mine not do they truly care about diabetic dogs. I did speak to another vets office This vet is in cow land, She said that the vet was away till Monday and that she would talk to him about Jazzie. Also there is one client that home tests but with a dog meter and that the vet advocated this. So I am hoping that I found a vet. Also called another vet down the street from me. Am waiting for him to call me back tomorrow. Got my questions ready for him. Hope he will work with me.
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mommytoNash		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10009 05/21/10 07:48 PM Administrator	You would think Austin would have plenty of educated Vets, but obviously not, and you're right Marianne, why should you beg them. You're the client, they either want you or not! I just know for me it's like this. I don't have it, AT ALL, and I just explain that. They either try to work with me or not. They are the losers if they don't because they will lose my long term business.....over a curve. Silly if you ask me. But, it is what it is! Good luck with all the rest.......hope one of them turns out. Cindy and Nash Nash was born 9/2/1998, and is my sweet 1/2 breed Cocker Spaniel/English Springer Spaniel. He was dx'd with diabetes in November 2007 and is currently on 9 units of Novelin N twice a day. Nash went blind approximately 6 mnths after dx, has glaucoma and gets eye drops 5x day
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lablover		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1302 05/21/10 08:25 PM	Boy can I relate to this when my first vet acted like diabetes was no big deal and never even tried to follow up with me even when I stopped going there. My vet got mad when Aspen peed all over his floor, are you frickin kidding me and then the vet tech came in saw what happened scooped Aspen up and gave her a bath! Sometimes the vet techs seem more knowledgablne and understanding. Then off to the 2nd vet, wow what a difference and actually wants to use me as an example for their other diabetic patients to test at home! I am so glad that I researched and found this forum, otherwise I would have been bankrupt trying to help Aspen. All in all the cost is not that bad once you get them regulated and do you shopping for the cheaper products, I mean in this economy we need every penny we can get! Now if I had to choose between food for us and the dogs, the dogs would win, they count on me and I would never let them down! Aspen, Yellow Lab, 13years old diagnosed with diabetes 12/22/09. Got her wings on August 23rd, 2010. She will be missed but remembered with much joy in my heart always.
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Aprilgirlsmom		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 255 05/21/10 09:02 PM	In NY I didn't need a prescription for the Humulin n and I found the syringes on line (no script needed) therefore with my vet I won. I home tested and did agree to bring April in for her fructosamine test/and A1c . I still remember when I brought her in for her first curve and he told me how much insulin to give her and sent me home. I had no idea what I was doing and didn't feel he was giving her the care she needed then I went online. I took her in for 3 curves every sat.$245.00 visit, then said no more (he just kept saying she's not regulated) so with the advice of many people I bought a meter(the same one the vet used) and began the journey . i will never forget his reaction when she got a great test result and then told him what I changed. He still cringes to this day when he sees me we are very cordial to eachother but I do use a different vet in the office now. Marianne do you need a prescription for humulin n in Texas? Barbara
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mzizgayle		#9	[url]	[-]
Moderator Posts: 3053 05/21/10 09:53 PM	Human doctors also do not seem to be experienced with diabetes, to find one that will work with you and not against you, will talk to you, not at you, and answer questions and allow you to make the decisions with them guiding you is tough. The first one I fired was my niece, she was the PA at the doctor's office. When I called the first time (when I started going blind) she says "you are not diabetic auntie, I know your family history", obviously she didn't read. It was her son's birthday and I took a present over, only to discover there was a party for the child and we were not invited "because you can't have cake"...now know her mother who is diabetic is sitting there with cake and icecream...Next day I told her to send my records to Dr I had changed. Of course this guy refused to listen to me, said you will do this or that and not give me a chance to try and control on my own. He was too concerned with treating the disease, not the person. When I changed again, I was armed with a long list of questions, and even before I let him examine me, he had to answer...and he did and I was pleased...of course he left for a fellowship and now I have the sweetest young doctor, and she also expects her diabetic patients to take some control in their health, she is there to guide them and to make suggestions, etc
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mommytoNash		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10009 05/21/10 11:51 PM Administrator	Barbara, I think Marianne ended up at Walmart for the Novelin N by Relion. It's still the best deal out there at somewhere between $23-25/vial and around $12-14 for syringes. So far, I've never seen anyone else come close. Gayle, I'm not surprised. Someday I'll share my stories on endocrinologist's Cindy and Nash Nash was born 9/2/1998, and is my sweet 1/2 breed Cocker Spaniel/English Springer Spaniel. He was dx'd with diabetes in November 2007 and is currently on 9 units of Novelin N twice a day. Nash went blind approximately 6 mnths after dx, has glaucoma and gets eye drops 5x day
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mzizgayle		#11	[url]	[-]
Moderator Posts: 3053 05/22/10 06:53 AM	It seems with this disease, you must become the expert, you must take the control. Doctors tend to go by text book, I actually had one say that "but the book says", well diabetes doesn't read. It doesn't behave how doctors/vets thinks it should. Every human and doggy do not react the same way, every body is different, what may work for one may not work with the next. So it is important to learn, to question your vet/doctor, and stand your ground. Most of us will not knowingly do something we know is wrong or doesn't feel right, you must learn to trust your instincts. If not sure about what the vet is telling you, ask someone else, get a second opinion. My doctor will actually make a suggestion on meds and tell me to check it out on the internet and let her know...gotta love a gal like that LOL..
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PamelaM413	One more important criteria for choosing a vet...	#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 260 05/22/10 09:00 AM	Make sure your dog will tolerate him or her. Pam 'Mom' of Phoebe, AKA Miss McPhee a 9 y.o. black and tan Min Pin (no...the dog in the photo "eees niet meh DOG!" and Raleigh, 4-5 y.o. Shepard/Spitz?
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Brandy mom		#13	[url]	[-]
Administrator Moderator Posts: 3887 05/22/10 09:39 AM	At first I thought I got very luckie with my vet. Then I just found it not so much. He treats me different than other patients. He has learned that I will come at him with a buch of questions so he better be prepared. I have sent him on the hunt for answers and he respects that. He did teach me how to home test the same day he taught me how to give insulin. I just thought all his patients home tested and found out this isn't true. I asked why and he told me some people don't want to. They just want to turn their dog over to me to treat. I told him you are good, but not that good. LOL Dawn
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PamelaM413		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 260 05/22/10 10:16 AM	I Love that reply, Dawn! awesome... Pam 'Mom' of Phoebe, AKA Miss McPhee a 9 y.o. black and tan Min Pin (no...the dog in the photo "eees niet meh DOG!" and Raleigh, 4-5 y.o. Shepard/Spitz?
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Aprilgirlsmom		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 255 05/22/10 11:08 AM	That picture reminds me of Katrina's first visit when I had just adopted her at a year old. She's come a long way since (though still has to be muzzled for exam) Barbara
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elaineandpuck		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 126 05/22/10 11:22 AM	You are so right, all of you. I was lucky that it only took me two vets and then I found my current vet. My first clue that he was wonderful was when I called their office and told them I wanted to talk to their vet about how he treated diabetes. Their response. "Come in at five o'clock. Went in, they have their consult room. the nice room that they use for when they have families that come with their pet, eutanasia and just as a consult. Very comforting room. He sat on the couch and I fired away my questions. For an hour!! When I was finished I felt good and decided to switch to him. the Charge? Nothing. Of course I would not have had the courage to ask all those questions had William and I not found this board the same night Puck was diagnosed. You all gave us the courage to stand up for what we wanted and to not be intimidated. That is a hard thing when you are so upset and distraught. One thing I often wish was that there was some way we could advertise the boards.. I was thinking of putting a link to it on my facebook and also my blog. I need to work on my blog more.. maybe when I get moved. Also give the info to vets so they can pass it on. I know many would not, but many might. I am agoing to post on my face book and ask people who visit there to put a link to here as well. You never know one small thing can s tart a big thing.. Elaine Elaine Angel Puck - Puck was dx in November, 2007 at the age of 12. She was well regulated on Novalin - 9 units 2x day. With a few minor exceptions she at Purina DCO and a tablespoon of a canned food. Add ins were pumpkin and chicken breast. Puckie left me May 6. 2010. She developed pancreatitis and was in such pain. She was a little HUGE light in each of my days. I still have my non- diabetic babies who love me unconditionally each and every day. Tucker a loyal and devoted 10 yo golden retriever and Toby, my incredibly neurotic loving mama's boy.
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Johanna13		#17	[url]	[-]
Administrator Posts: 7346 05/22/10 11:56 AM Administrator & Owner	That's a great Idea Elaine..... When I posted this thread I was hoping to find ways to reach people that are not aware of how to treat there diabetic pet and might consider the other alternative. How to do that is the big question..... I was wondering if I had a fly er made up that we could copy and put in some vets offices?? were not taking away from the vet, just adding that extra support???? Something that said" your dog is diabetic? don't panic, don't euthanize, We can help you take control of this disease, and save you lots of expense in treating your diabetic dog...???? We are here to help you & your dog 24/7.. and were free.... OK I'm open for suggestion's here !!!!!!! Last Edited By: Johanna13 05/22/10 02:23 PM. Edited 2 times.
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Carolyn98		#18	[url]	[-]
Moderator Posts: 3785 05/22/10 12:07 PM	The new owner of the clinic I went to will not euthanize if it is even remotely possible to save them. He gets them to sign over their animal to him (clinic) and treats them and tries to find homes for them!!!! Often there is a donation box there so people can donate toward the expense of the care. I like that!
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lindsay write		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 294 05/22/10 12:50 PM Moderator	He was too concerned with treating the disease, not the person. - such a true statement, Gayle! Many vets behave the same way as medical doctors. Most just stick their heads into test results and go with the answer that's easiest or most common. They rarely look at the individual as...ummm... an individual! Marianne, I'm so sorry you're having so much trouble finding another vet. Texas A&M is indeed too far to go especially when Jazzy isn't having specific difficulties outside of diabetes. It can take ages to find a good vet. Then it can take ages to train the vet. When Jenny was diagnosed, my beloved vet sighed, "She's diabetic. She doesn't seem like the type to be diabetic." I never asked her what "type" a dog should be, but now I think she meant that I'm not the type to own a diabetic dog. She thought (and she was right) that I'd have trouble with the learning process and would panic unnecessarily. So true. She taught me how to give insulin and suggested that I might want to home monitor. But she said she'd tell me about everything else on a "need to know basis." She was correct that I was a basket-case. My hands were actually sweating when I gave Jenny her first insulin shot. When I found the people on this board, though, and realized that diabetes is a real hands-on disease, I asked her enough questions to make it obvious that I wanted my dog to live many more years and I wanted to know exactly what I was doing. So she told me. Then I'd come to the people here to ask what they thought. After a few months, I was home monitoring and calling in the numbers to my vet. If the numbers were "off," she'd say, "What do you think is the reason?" So I'd tell her what I thought, usually based on comments from people on this board. She either agreed, disagreed, or thought about it and got back to me. Yep, it can take a long time to form a trusting relationship with a vet. After Jenny died, my vet told me that she'd learned so much from us. I think the biggest lesson was that not all dog owners can be grouped together. Some of us want to use our own heads, even if it's really difficult. Jenny's cancer scare ("She's full of cancer!") is the perfect case in point. All the experts said she had cancer even before they sent a tissue sample to the lab. As most people here already know, the sample came back negative - no cancer. She lived three more years after that. So many people euthanize their dog because somebody says, "She's full of cancer!" They assume, I guess, that we don't want to pay for tests to make sure the "experts" know what they're doing. Same thing with diabetes and many other diseases. They assume we won't spend the money and heaven forbid - they might have to do some paperwork or research that might cut into more profitable pursuits such as giving vaccinations that aren't needed. Oh-oh. I just ranted, didn't I? On the other hand... I'm very lucky to live in an area that supports a few hundred vet clinics so I have lots of choices. I feel so sorry for people who don't have as many options. My favourite vet is one-in-a-million and, after everything that happened with Jenny, I trust her completely. Even when I second-guess her, she's always been right. I think she uses her gut feelings a lot, too. I wish I could clone her for everyone here who is having difficulty finding a good vet. Jac, Ella (golden retriever, not diabetic), Abbey (golden retriever/Irish setter, not diabetic) beautiful Angel Jenny (golden retriever), and cats Mona and Ernie. Jenny passed away February 15, 2008 at almost 14 years old. Weight: 65 pounds. Diabetes, myasthenia gravis, hypothyroid. Started on Caninsulin (Vetsulin) for 3 months then switched to NPH - 13 units twice daily. .
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Carolyn98		#20	[url]	[-]
Moderator Posts: 3785 05/22/10 01:39 PM	I was lucky like Jacque,both my vets were like that, 1st one sold the practice but the 2nd one worked there part-time so she knew Rorky. I just seem to find female vets have a different way about them, more gentle and understanding and they list to us female pet owners!! Well that is my experience anyway.
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