Shasta - Update - seizure in Canine Diabetes Forum

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Shasta - Update - seizure

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bwalters4	Shasta - Update - seizure		Lead	[-]
Posts: 23 04/27/10 11:19 AM	Tags : None Well, I am back with more questions. First off I am sorry I just "disappeared" from the group but I really need more advice / help Background: We seem to have been doing OK, good numbers (I still check) and on Friday she went in for a curve test at the vet and she was running in the 200's so vet had me increase her insulin from 14 u to 15 u. She did fine all weekend, good numbers averaging in the 150's. Yesterday: Shasta had a very bad seizure. Timeline: Noon I came home for lunch and she looked great no symptoms. 1:20 She was pacing back and forth from the kitchen to the living room which usually signals she wants out, went to let her out and she collapsed on the floor. Only her feet were twitching at this time and she was still "aware" of what was going on around here. Got out the syrup (figuring she was low and not wanting to take time to test first) and started massaging it on her gums. 1:25 She fell over and went into a massive seizure that took over her entire body. Her legs were "running" she kept gasping for air (or at least that's what it sounded like) I actually was able to keep my hand in her mouth and I kept rubbing syrup on her gums and keep her tongue in place. At this point I was FLIPPING out. I didn't stay calm as I know I should have. I was able to get her in my car and ran every red light on the way to the vets. Go her there by 1:30 and she was good, panting heavily, but able to walk around the room. Vet did a battery of blood tests and nothing significant - even her blood sugar was 85 - so he suspected that it was not related to her diabetes?? So they sent us home and said that if it happened again she would need to have neurological tests / scans done at an animal hospital. So finally my questions: Is a diabetic seizure different in anyway? such as the length of the seizure? Anything else I should be aware of? Can a seizure be triggered even if she was not extremely low? (She only had about 2 tablespoons worth of syrup) Thank you in advance for your time... I really appreciate all of you. Barbara Walters Mom to Shasta 10 (dx'd 11-09) and Trace 1 (my tripaw'd rescue)
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Johanna13		#1	[url]	[-]
Administrator Posts: 7346 04/27/10 11:28 AM Administrator & Owner	Hello and welcome back Barbara... Before anyone address this I felt it was important to post the history we have for Shasta... If anything has changed please list any changes. Help and advise is on the way !!! How long has your dog been Diabetic-------11/20/09 How much does your dog weigh?--------67 lbs How much insulin are you using?---------14.5 units What type of insulin are you using?------Humulin N What times are you giving insulin?------6:30 AM and 6:30 PM What are you feeding your dog?----- 1 cup same time as above, Science Diet Light How often and how much are you feeding?----- 3/4C morning and night. What type of dog do you have?-----------Border Collie Mix. Do you home test?--------------- YES!! :-) "My goal in life is to become as wonderful as my dog thinks I am. www.caninesupportgroup.com Last Edited By: Johanna13 04/27/10 12:53 PM. Edited 2 times.
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pug.petswithdiabetes		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2894 04/27/10 11:43 AM	Hi Barbara, Welcome back, dont feel bad, we all have time restrictions, and you are welcome here any time. I am sorry to say I have no experience with diabetic seizures, assuming that is what this was. Did you vet feel it was related to the diabetes? I am thinking, but not sure, if Shasta got low enough to have a seizure, whether it is possibe for the syrup and possibly a bit of rebound reaction could have brought her up to semi-normal numbers by the time you arrived at the vet. If that happened, Shasta should be running pretty high numbers today. How are her numbers today? If they are normal for her, it is quite likely that the seizure could be form another cause. Wish I could help more. Prayers and thoughts with you and Shasta till you get if figured out. Hugs Joan
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bwalters4		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 23 04/27/10 12:20 PM	Hi Joan, Thanks for your response. Shasta was 297 this morning at her 6:30 am feeding / dose. The vet was not sure the seizure was related to diabetes but they did run all the blood tests that they do in such a case and everything checked out. All her vital organs, no cataracts...
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bwalters4		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 23 04/27/10 12:23 PM	I changed a few things... (food, dose, and she lost 2 pounds) Thank you the changes are now updated.. Last Edited By: Johanna13 04/27/10 12:54 PM. Edited 1 time.
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pug.petswithdiabetes		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2894 04/27/10 12:29 PM	Is 297 in the normal range for her at the am fasting?
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Dr Lee		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 57 04/27/10 12:46 PM	bwalters4 wrote: So finally my questions: Is a diabetic seizure different in anyway? such as the length of the seizure? Anything else I should be aware of? Can a seizure be triggered even if she was not extremely low? (She only had about 2 tablespoons worth of syrup) Unfortunately there are not specific characteristics to a seizure of one origin versus another. "Can a seizure be triggered even if she was not extremely low?" - only if there is another disorder causing the seizures. It would then no longer be classified as hypoglycemic seizure. However, if the pet had a low blood sugar seizure, was given oral syrup and recovered from the seizure, and then was tested - the test could come out normal. 85 is normal but low normal. (80-150) Your response in giving the oral syrup without testing the blood is the right thing to do. Unfortunately, obtaining a blood sugar that is low at the time of the seizure is the best method to establish that the seizures are from the low sugar. So what to do now? In an ideal world (or in the human medical world with insurance), further testing such as MRI would be performed to look for other causes of seizures. Furthermore repetitive glucose curves would look for boarderline low glucose dips. MRI and other diagnostic steps (complete blood testing, urinalysis, urine culture, abdominal ultrasound, etc.) may or may not be a course you wish to pursue. However I would recommend that you talk to your veterinarian about whether he recommends a glucose curve and/or any other tests. Final note: the worry that during a seizure a dog or human may swallow their tongue is a myth. There have been tests on blood brain oxygen levels during seizures. Unless a dog is about to fall down stairs or into a pool, I do not recommend touching the pet. It risks you needing to go to the emergency room for stitches on the way to the vet office. I hope that this helps.
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Brandy mom		#7	[url]	[-]
Administrator Moderator Posts: 3887 04/27/10 01:29 PM	Hi Barbara and welcome back. It is good to hear from you again. If you gave her all the Karo syrup I am not sure why her BG was only 85. I would think it would be higher. Brandy gets very antsy if she is low. It like she go in hyper mode and I can't get her to stop. So I have learned if she starts to dance around I check her BG 90% of the time it is low. I asked the vet about it and he wasn't sure if she could feel her sugar dropping. It could be making her confused and she doesn't know how to handle it. Sorry I am not much help. Dawn
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debbuna		#8	[url]	[-]
Moderator Posts: 2167 04/27/10 03:52 PM	Hi Barbara, welcome back. I'm so glad you felt good about bringing your problem with Shasta here to the board. I tend to agree with Joan here, thinking the pacing she was doing just prior to the seizure was probably a reaction to the low (like Dawn mentioned happens with Brandy). Giving the Karo immediately was probably the smart thing to do. With a very recent insulin increase, it's possible for her to drop too low at first. The 85 reading at the vets could have been a result of the Karo which was given just minutes before you got her there. (Fast driving? red lights?- oh my!!) Her reading at the time of the seizure could have been even lower than that. Karo works REALLY fast on Lucy- I see a change in her within 4-5 minutes and within 15 minutes, she is acting normal again. I would certainly keep a good eye out on her and test often while at the increased dose to make sure it doesn't happen again. and my Lucy, American Pugsley, age 15 -born 4/18/1996, DX. diabetic Nov. 07, blind 2/08, Weight 11 lbs., Humulin N 7 U , Homecooked chicken/white rice with canned Hills W/D My sweet, baby Lucy left me peacefully on October, 24, 2011 with her head on my shoulder and my comforting whispers in her poor little, deaf ear. I know she was met faithfully at the bridge by all her friends that went before her. Rest in peace, my baby. Lucy, 4/18/96-10/24/11
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PamelaM413		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 260 04/27/10 06:13 PM	I'm just thinking out loud here, and it may be silly....but there have been cases of dogs practically dragging their masters out of bed if the diabetic master is dipping dangerously low in his/her sleep. It is said that dogs can smell the change. And now they train service dogs to do just that. What if dogs can smell the change in themselves as well as feel it? Hmmm... Pam 'Mom' of Phoebe, AKA Miss McPhee a 9 y.o. black and tan Min Pin (no...the dog in the photo "eees niet meh DOG!" and Raleigh, 4-5 y.o. Shepard/Spitz?
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pug.petswithdiabetes		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2894 04/27/10 06:39 PM	Gayle has said that she can feel it, I am sure she will weigh in later here. But I know for sure that Bella knows when she is low. If I didn't notice her whining, then I surely couldn't miss her when she howls like a little banshee!!! I should get a video, she looks like an imitation coyote!!
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mzizgayle		#11	[url]	[-]
Moderator Posts: 3053 04/27/10 07:52 PM	I will have bouts of feeling "hungry, antsy, even light headed, even nervousness/shakes" and sometimes forgetfullness (and its not me having a senior moment lol) when I am heading low, I start getting these feelings now when my numbers hit into the low 70's. They start out very subtle at first. My doctor does not want me to get any lower than 60, and doesn't like the idea of me averaging about 4 a month. I can usually tell the reason why I get these lows and usually my doing from not getting a snack, not eating enough carbs or out in the gardens, etc. The main concern of course is not to have these during the night since you can go into a coma if you do not wake up in time to get something into your body to raise the sugars. I keep apple juice in the house. I don't go low usually during the night, I have the wonderful dawn effect where I go higher. The one time I did have a low during the night, I did wake up feeling very hungry. When a human has had high numbers for a long time, and I imagine even with doggies, then the body gets use to these numbers. So when a person starts to get regulated, the body will react as if a low, but in reality isn't. Before I was officially diagnosed, I was in the high 800's, to my body even 300 seem low to it and I would experience the same feelings. It took almost 9 months for me to be able to tell a real low feeling. When my numbers go high, my eyes feel like they are burning, use to say "allergies" were causing it... It takes time to 'read' the body, and understand, you need to really watch the doggies, write down what you are seeing, monitor the bg and usually you will notice the same behaviors and soon be able to tell right off, your furbaby will let you know and you will learn to trust your instinct. Animals can tell changes in their human masters, we have a cocker, Prissy, who is attached to Jim at the hip lol. Jim has heart disease, and is disabled from it. By me watching Prissy, I can tell when Jim is lying to me about how he is feeling, she gets very clingy and follows him from room to room. She will get into his face when on his lap and just stare at him and you know those cocker eyes !
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pug.petswithdiabetes		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2894 04/28/10 09:25 AM	That is great first hand information Gayle. thank yo so much!!
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sissysmommy.petswithdiabetes		#13	[url]	[-]
Moderator Posts: 1494 05/02/10 12:34 PM	It is my understanding that one seizure does not indicate anything in and of itself. Once the dog (or human) has 2 seizures, then the neuros start looking for a cause. This is what your vet is doing. After having an epileptic and and an epileptic son, I know all too well what happens during a seizure. As Dr. Lee said, a dog (or human) can't swallow their tongue. They may, however, bite it. Please do not put your hand anywhere near the mouth during a seizure. If those jaws clamp down on your hand, they won't let go until the seizure is over. That said, you need to get sugar into the dog if it is a hypo. I used this with Sissy, and it might work with Shasta. Put some white cake frosting on a kitchen knife. If you can get it into the dogs mouth, the teeth will scrape it off and the frosting is right there on the gums. If you can't get it into the mouth, you could still rub it along the gums without putting your hand in the mouth. As scary as it looks, Shasta was not aware of the seizure. My Rusty would be somewhat confused and tired after a seizure, but they truly feel nothing. There is a blindness/epilepsy forum on here that may give you some additional information about seizures. Sissy, a 15 1/2 year old lhasa apso left for the Rainbow Bridge on February 28, 2009. She was diagnosed on September 21, 2007. You can run and your eyes are clear, my girl. On March 8, 2009, we adopted Fritz, a Bichon Frise puppy. He is a rescue dog with a beautiful spirit.
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mommytoNash		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10009 06/05/10 06:01 PM Administrator	Just wondering how Shasta is doing.....it's been too long since we heard from you! Cindy and Nash Nash was born 9/2/1998, and is my sweet 1/2 breed Cocker Spaniel/English Springer Spaniel. He was dx'd with diabetes in November 2007 and is currently on 9 units of Novelin N twice a day. Nash went blind approximately 6 mnths after dx, has glaucoma and gets eye drops 5x day
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bwalters4		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 23 06/07/10 12:36 PM	Shasta has not had a repeat seizure but darn it I can't get her under 200. Right after the seizure I dropped her insulin from 14.5 units to 10 units. She was steadily in the upper 300's. I slowly crept her dosage up by .5 units until, believe it or not, she is now getting 15.5 and I still don't see anything lower then 200. Same insulin same needles, same food, same dosage. Can dogs have a "honeymoon" period like humans do where they start producing insulin again??? Thanks again for all your input.
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Johanna13		#16	[url]	[-]
Administrator Posts: 7346 06/07/10 01:12 PM Administrator & Owner	Barbara, When a diabetic dog is honeymooning they need less insulin... The body is producing some insulin of there own, therefore they need less. This looks more like some insulin resistance. This is rare, it does not happen to often.. and I have real doubts that this is " Honeymooning" because Shasta is having high BG readings and not low. "Just because your diabetic dog’s insulin may have become ineffective, doesn’t automatically mean he has developed insulin resistance. There are several reasons why the insulin may have become ineffective. Insulin given inappropriately can be a cause for elevated blood sugars. This can be caused by the owner providing the wrong dosage, using the wrong syringes (U100 instead of U40 syringes) or improper administration of insulin. These can all affect how the dog’s body utilizes its insulin. Bad insulin can also cause elevated blood sugars. There could be a bad batch, the insulin could have been stored unrefrigerated or could have been around for longer than 4 weeks. If a dog is experiencing severe low blood sugars, his body will react by creating an extreme high blood sugar. Your veterinarian can help adjust insulin doses to an appropriate level to avoid this situation. Some dogs require multiple adjustments to their insulin dosage. This could be due to age, activity level, disease or other causes. Work with your veterinarian to adjust your dog’s insulin dosage and to get him regulated." I did send Dr Lee a email to look at your thread.. hopefully he will have more input.. Last Edited By: Johanna13 06/07/10 01:21 PM. Edited 3 times.
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bwalters4		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 23 06/07/10 03:37 PM	Johanna13 wrote: This looks more like some insulin resistance. This is rare, it does not happen to often.. and I have real doubts that this is " Honeymooning" because Shasta is having high BG readings and not low. I thought perhaps when she was going low and then had a seizure that perhaps she was honeymooning then.. not now since we are having higher numbers. Though I do stand corrected, she was 184 at the 12:00 check. "Just because your diabetic dog’s insulin may have become ineffective, doesn’t automatically mean he has developed insulin resistance. There are several reasons why the insulin may have become ineffective. Insulin given inappropriately can be a cause for elevated blood sugars. This can be caused by the owner providing the wrong dosage, using the wrong syringes (U100 instead of U40 syringes) or improper administration of insulin. These can all affect how the dog’s body utilizes its insulin. Bad insulin can also cause elevated blood sugars. There could be a bad batch, the insulin could have been stored unrefrigerated or could have been around for longer than 4 weeks. If a dog is experiencing severe low blood sugars, his body will react by creating an extreme high blood sugar. Your veterinarian can help adjust insulin doses to an appropriate level to avoid this situation. Some dogs require multiple adjustments to their insulin dosage. This could be due to age, activity level, disease or other causes. Work with your veterinarian to adjust your dog’s insulin dosage and to get him regulated." I am using the suggested needles and I change Shasta's insulin out every 3 weeks.. because I am anal like that. :-) I haven't been consulting my vet so much lately because I feel like I know more about diabetes then he does since I have dealt with it on a personal level for the last 7 years. I hope that doesn't come across as snobbish but he has not given me any advice that I haven't already dealt with. Plus the last couple of times I called I got the sincere feeling of being a "helicopter parent". He in fact told me to quit checking so often. I guess I am still stumped why she had a seizure if everything has been the same .. and even now she is getting a unit more insulin then she was when she HAD the seizure. I hate diabetes.. why does it have to have so many darn variables. I did send Dr Lee a email to look at your thread.. hopefully he will have more input..
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Johanna13		#18	[url]	[-]
Administrator Posts: 7346 06/07/10 04:18 PM Administrator & Owner	I hate diabetes.. why does it have to have so many darn variables. I couldnt agree more ...
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mommytoNash		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10009 06/07/10 09:53 PM Administrator	I guess it's possible, that maybe Shasta just had a weird day. And used her insulin more than usual. I had that recently with Nash, and have taken him down on his insulin. I'm leaving him there till I'm able to do a decent curve. I know that as they get older, that things can change. If Shasta's eye sight is changing, perhaps she is more anxious......and uses up more insulin. Thanks for coming back and updating us. BTW, I thought it was funny what you said about your Vet. We're not all fortunate enough to have Vets who are well versed in diabetes, so I understand your hesitation in contacting your Vet. Do continue to let us know how Shasta is doing. Cindy and Nash Nash was born 9/2/1998, and is my sweet 1/2 breed Cocker Spaniel/English Springer Spaniel. He was dx'd with diabetes in November 2007 and is currently on 9 units of Novelin N twice a day. Nash went blind approximately 6 mnths after dx, has glaucoma and gets eye drops 5x day
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Dr Lee		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 57 06/09/10 09:39 PM	bwalters4 wrote: So finally my questions: Is a diabetic seizure different in anyway? such as the length of the seizure? Anything else I should be aware of? Can a seizure be triggered even if she was not extremely low? (She only had about 2 tablespoons worth of syrup) Seizures will look like seizures regardless of cause. Depending upon the severity of the underlying cause and/or the compensatory abilities of the body, the duration and look can be different. Also many other causes of seizures (ie toxin, brain swelling, DIC, etc.) will have clinical signs before and after the seizures. So what denotes the length of a low blood sugar seizure? 1) the body's compensatory abilities which include: cortisol release, sympathetic nervous system, liver and general health status and 2) time to get syrup onto gums. A "diabetic" seizure refers to low blood sugar. It probably should be called either a "low blood sugar seizure". There are many conditions though that can cause seizures and diabetics can often have multiple issues which may or may not predispose them to seizures. This is the reason why we as veterinarians still will test for a low blood sugar even though it "seems so obvious". If there is not a low blood sugar, then we need to start a complete workup. I hope that that helps. :)
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